Kobe Bryant set a new career high tonight with 81 points--the 2nd highest total in NBA history. How does that game stack up against Michael Jordan's career-best 69-point game?
| Player | Date | Min | FG | 3P | FT | Reb | Ass | PF | St | TO | Blk | Pts | Game Score |
| Michael Jordan | 03/28/1990 | 50 | 23-37 | 2-6 | 21-23 | 18 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 69 | 64.6 |
| Kobe Bryant | 01/22/2006 | 42 | 28-46 | 7-13 | 18-20 | 6 | 2 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 81 | 63.5 |
Here's a quick Nick Bakay-style breakdown:
| Category |  Michael Jordan |
 Kobe Bryant |
Edge |
| Scoring | 69 | 81 | Kobe |
| All Around Game | 18 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals, 64.6 Hollinger Game Score | 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 steals, 63.5 Game Score | MJ |
| Opponent Strength | 1989-90 Cavaliers (42-40, 7th seed) |
2005-06 Raptors (14-27, lottery-bound) |
MJ |
| Strength of Primary Defender | Craig Ehlo | Jalen Rose | MJ From Wikipedia: Rose is now focusing his attention on making his "Jalen Rose Messenger Toolbar" a success. |
| Venue Difficulty | Richfield Coliseum in Cleveland | Staples Center in L.A. | MJ The Bulls had eliminated the Cavs from the playoffs in the prior 2 seasons |
| Sidekick Contribution | Scottie Pippen 3-10, 7 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 5 steals, 8 turnovers |
Lamar Odom 1-7, 8 points, 10 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 blocks, 4 turnovers |
Push |
| Coach | Phil Jackson | Jackson | Push |
| Overall | One of the greatest performances by the best player of all-time | Best performance by one of the greatest players (so far) | MJ |
Comments[78]
Posted by jgurney on January 23, 2006 1:33:42 AM PST
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Re: Kobe's 81 vs. MJ's 69
Brilliant breakdown!
And a very balanced perspective.
Comment from Tony on January 23, 2006 11:15:34 AM PST
Great breakdown. Kobe had the benefit of being matched against one of the worst defenders in the league. If Paul Pierce were allowed to shoot 46 times, and just shot his avg of 48% from the field, he would end up with about 70 points. I'm not impressed.
Comment from basketbawful on January 23, 2006 7:22:48 PM PST
stop hating and just give the man his
props!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comment from Anonymous on January 26, 2006 5:51:33 PM PST
You don't just get "allowed" to take 46 shots. Besides, Kobe brought his team back from down double digits to win the game. I thought that was the point. If Pierce taking 46 shots helps the Celtics win on some given night (or every night), he should do it.
Comment from Anonymous on January 24, 2006 1:09:10 PM PST
Ei, all of you hatter's of kobe suck it up .. kobe bring n scores alot because its useless 2 pass a ball to his damn teamates ! if i have the talent that kobe does i do wat i do 2 make my team won ... he's not selfish its just that he wants 2 win every game and thats the total talent he have so hatters there sorry maybe ur favorite team u like sucks ... gets ?
Comment from mj flores on January 27, 2006 10:49:20 PM PST
if the players u all say if given the same amount of shot attempts(46) score as much just go out there and try it cuz it'll sure guarantee a win for their team. answer is non of them can do it thats y they dont go out there and take 46 shots a game and even if they do i guarantee they wont equal or surpass kobe's 81!!! so stop ur hating and give Kobe his props!!!
Comment from Anonymous on January 28, 2006 12:31:19 AM PST
Kobe did'nt plan on scoring 81pts... It just happened... coz his team needed it most and noone besides him want to step up... So, He carry his team and single handedly, willing his team to win...
Comment from Anonymous on January 28, 2006 1:18:17 AM PST
Don't Compare KOBE BRYANT to MICHAEL JORDAN "He's Better"....
Comment from Anonymous on January 28, 2006 1:28:10 AM PST
Which one r u saying is better
Comment from KB81 on October 28, 2006 6:10:58 AM PDT
It's not that simple. Kobe had the greater performance, sure, but that doesn't make him a greater player than MJ.
Skills, on par, probably better. But he'll never be as smart a player as MJ was.
Y'all call out the haters, but there's a point somewhere there.
Comment from shink on February 21, 2006 11:34:57 AM PST
I'll take the 69 points, 18 boards, 6 assists, 4 steals any day over 81 points. More complete game. Kobe's game was impressive, but stop comparing him to Jordan.
Comment from Anonymous on March 2, 2006 3:24:35 PM PST
slap some ham yo slap it
Comment from Anonymous on April 20, 2006 6:45:53 PM PDT
It's unavoidable. You just did.
Comment from shink on March 3, 2006 12:29:42 AM PST
Kobe's 81 has got to be one of the best in our era. The game was different when Jordan scored his 69 points. Jordan's had more of a complete game, compared to Kobe's. MJ did it on both ends of the floor (18 rebounds) coming from a Guard position. It is hard to compare who is better because of the difference in generation. Give MJ 5 more shots to equal Kobe's and they both would've had the same amount of total points. So in all honesty, props to both of them.
Comment from Anonymous on April 12, 2006 8:04:06 PM PDT
pffff........................no comparison!
You cannot compare the great Mj to Kobe even though he got the 81 points. And how couldn't he get 81 points with the terrible defence by Toronto and the 46 shots!!
Comment from Anonymous on April 20, 2006 6:44:40 PM PDT
Kobe's 81 points is far better than MJ's 69. Look at the stats, people, not at the player's "image"! 81 points in 42 minutes? That's just sick. MJ needed all 4 quarters and overtime and 23 foul shots to squeeze in a mere 69. And consider that Kobe launched most of his shots from a different area code...darn near 30 plus feet away from the basket, and drilled them like they were 10 footers! Being the best ever is about being fearless, being confident and knowing that your shot is going in before you take it. Kobe was fearless. He often pulled up on a fast break and knowned down 35 footers like it was no big deal. MJ was cautious, driving to the basket and trying to get fouled on every possession, in case his shot did not go in. Thats not exciting. The game is exciting because of players like Kobe who do things that we consider impossible. Like scoring 81 points in modern-day NBA, as a shooting guard. Kobe is the man. The legend. The best ever. Any one who doesn't like Kobe is simply a hater, because the guy is the best player to pick up a basketball. Period.
Comment from Anonymous on June 24, 2006 1:17:26 AM PDT
You, sir, are an idiot. Period.
Comment from Anonymous on July 3, 2006 10:30:46 AM PDT
i just watched both these games on Tv and found that despite what people may say Kobe took more layups than Jordan. I believe it was 11 to 6. thats 22 points that kobe got in the key. kobe made more 3's but jordan took more jumpers. also somebody said that all jordan did was try to get fouled yet he took only 3 more free throws then kobe and he had what 2 overtimes? So basicall kobe got 22 points on lay ups and 18 points on free throws thats 40 points he got due to a lack of good defense. A great performance? Hells Ya. But remember quality over quantity.
Comment from dude on September 11, 2006 2:43:16 PM PDT
Let me start off by saying I love Kobe and the Lakers. However I think that Kobe has become great because MJ showed us all how to be the greatest. He showed us that you have to outwork the competition and play on both ends of the floor. If the NBA and its fans could choose someone to write a "Basketball Bible" so to speak on how to become a great NBA player who would write it? With that said if Kobe's greater than MJ where are his MVP awards? How many championships has Kobe won without Shaq? Was Jordan ever considered the sidekick? Jordan was a creator. Kobe is a copier. Also saying that Kobe is better than MJ is like saying Mike Tyson is better than Ali. Yes he knocked people out quicker than Ali but look at his competition. Yes Kobe scored 81, but against who; the Raptors?
Comment from dude on August 21, 2006 2:23:26 PM PDT
Are you guys forgetting about the defense?? When Jordan played, defenses were much better and more physical. In today's game with the no hand checking it's a whole lot easir to score. If Jordan played under today rules he would probably aveage about 40 a game.
The days of the bad boys defense are over. Scorers have it much better now.
Comment from Anonymous on September 11, 2006 1:36:38 PM PDT
Also in Jordans day there much more stress for the fundamentals of the game. why do you think david stern created that 20 and over rule. todays league is run by GM's that want to put people in the stands. so they go out there and spend millions on some teenager that can do a 360 windmill. the league and the sport have lost its love for the unity of the team. today its all about endorsements and large contracts. so its going to be a lot easier to score and win in todays league. just think about it, would Wade and the Heat really been able to beat the bad boys back in the day, or the Showtime Lakers, Larry and the Celtics? i think not.
Comment from dude on September 11, 2006 2:28:59 PM PDT
Is this debate about basketball or public image. Would we be questioning the absolute wonderment of Kobe's accomplishments had he not been "accused" of rape and had not endured the years of bashing from Shaq? I think not. So for those of you who don't like Kobe in the first place, who cares where your distorted view leads you...Kobe is leading us to the big dance in 2008....w/o Shaquille and w/o prison garb.
Comment from Anonymous on September 11, 2006 3:16:31 PM PDT
i can only speak for myself when i say that number one my first entry started out by saying, "Let me start off by saying I love Kobe and the Lakers." I for record have always been one to defend Kobe Bryant when people said that Vince Carter, Lebron James, or whoever was better than him. i was there rooting for him and the Lakers through all three championships. I am the one that says he is the best player of his era. Im the one that has gone to several Laker games chanting Kobe's name to the top of my lungs. furthermore at no point in my evaluation of Kobe's 81 vs Jordan's 69 did i mention rape after all we all know Kobe is innocent. As regards to Shaq lets face it while Kobe's role was big it was Shaq that won the MVP Award in all their title runs. If you dispute that than call David Stern. Shaq bashed him but then again would Kobe have three rings if it wasnt for Shaq? Quit acting like Kobe won all those champinoships by himself. And please sir we dont have time for your perdictions of the future. you can advertise your psychic readings on someone elses watch.
Comment from dude on September 11, 2006 3:50:51 PM PDT
Checkmate
Comment from dude on September 11, 2006 3:51:36 PM PDT
And another thing, people til this day will debate over whos better Michael or Magic, Rocky or Ali, Montana or Bradshaw, Woods or Nicklaus. This is simply another debate of two great athletes that play the same sport in two different eras. you sir are the one that brought up public image and rape not us.
Comment from dude on September 11, 2006 4:05:28 PM PDT
No one wins championships by themselves, not even MJ (count his pre-Scottie Pippen rings as proof). However, we all know that NBA playoff games are decided in the final half of the final quarter. Review the tapes. During those championship years, Shaq spent many of a 4th quarter as an offensive liability (see Hack-a-Shaq, see the dent on the rim after his foul shots). Kobe on the other hand, spent those 4th quarters with gravity defying aerobatics and precision shooting. Shaq was setting next to Phil since they have the same free throw percentage. Checkmate? Are you playing chess by yourself?
Comment from Anonymous on September 11, 2006 4:06:31 PM PDT
first off scottie pippen is to jordan as Kobe is to Shaq. His mother fuckin sidekick. i cant think of a team dynasty that didnt have two great players. but kobe will be calling Shaq to replace Chris Mihm before Shaq calls Kobe to replace Dwayne Wade.
Wade who by the way got the MVP of the finals. he is doing what Kobe didnt do. Wade makes people say "Oh Shaq only averaged 18 points," just like they said, "Kobe scored 22 but Iverson had 37."and yes jordan needed pippen just as Shaq needed Kobe i never said he didnt so whats your point? And yes playing chess against you is like playing against myself.
Comment from dude on September 11, 2006 4:59:36 PM PDT
Now that thats over with back to the matters at hand. Kobe's 81 vs jordan's 69. all said Jordan never scored 81 points. WHy not? well it is believed by just everyone that an athlete doesn't reach their PRIME until the age of 27. At this age Kobe and Jordan are in two totally different situations. Jordan at this stage was getting ready to win his first champoinship therefore he was playing more TEAM oriented basketball not allowing or needing an 81 point performance. Kobe on the other hand is on a team that sucks so he needs to score whenever, however, much like Jordan when he entered the league. The difference. Kobe has the freedom to score while in his PRIME when everything is finally coming together, plus hes playing in an era that shows a lack of fundamentals and quality defense. Let it be noted that MJ did droped 50's and 60's all throughout his career. PRIMED and UNPRIMED.
Comment from dude on September 11, 2006 5:14:25 PM PDT
Somebody said
"Shaq was setting next to Phil since they have the same free throw percentage."
Yes and now Kobe and Phil sit next to each other since they both have the same number of MVP's.
Shaq and Phil also won a championship without each other. Kobe cant say that.
Comment from dude on September 11, 2006 5:18:37 PM PDT
Wade makes people say "Oh Shaq only averaged 18 points," just like they said, "Kobe scored 22 but Iverson had 37." Wade does nothing but take advantage of a beat down shaq, who is only half of what he used to be with the lakers. Obviously the better player in the heat is D-wade, but i doubt that would be the case if shaq were still in his prime or even now if he didnt have all those god awful injuries. Shaq WAS an elite force in the center and did overshadow Kobe in the championship runs except for the 2nd title, which i think the mvp should have went to kobe, but hey its all a matter of opinion right? But back to wade, he got the mvp not because he outshined shaq, but because he played great while shaq just played the best he could as a dying star.
Comment from BEaFANnotAcritic on February 20, 2007 9:46:03 AM PST
you make a good point. although i disagree that Shaq is dying. Yes his numbers have gone down but his presence is still very strong in the key. The day a vince CArter or Kobe Bryant has the balls to drive in the lane and dunk on Shaq is the day who can declare him dying. after all they were not afraid of tim Duncan, Yao Ming, or other great big men. shaq now compared to young shaq is older but is still one of the best. Regardless i think that the point i was trying to make was what Jordan had a more significant role in his teams championships than Kobe did in the Lakers. Lets say Kobe got that MVP in the finals. Lets also say that he got the MVP last season. He would have one of each. Now compare that to Jordan who had 3 season MVP's,2 Finals MVP's, and 4 or 5 scoring titles at the age of 28. But I know Kobe couldnt do all that because he had to share the ball with Shaq. Poor Kobe having to pass the ball to the most dominant center of all time. Lets see how many championships he wins without him.
Comment from dude on February 20, 2007 11:14:05 PM PST
i don't care wat da fuck all yall say about kobe hes da best player in da game rite now and if he did'nt have shaq he would of have an mvp season and an mvp finals trophy. he's da next jordan!
Comment from Anonymous on February 22, 2007 8:51:56 PM PST
Kobe is the best player man...i didnt say he wasnt, but its up to him at this point to achieve as much as he can. MJ was MJ and Kobe is Kobe...they are two people and with awesome talent. Jordan is gonna get all the luv because he simply was the first to do what he did, thats all it is. The rest of these people are filled with hatred towards kobe and come up with anything to belittle him, that's what happens when you're number one, everyone is a critic. If he wasn't any good, why bother trying to talk about him right?? But for now Jordan remains as the best player...who knows...maybe one day he'll be topped. it's like dan marino and peyton manning.
Comment from Anonymous on February 22, 2007 9:41:29 PM PST
i dont think id call it belittling Kobe but simply acknowleding the fact that he still has some things to prove and accomplish before his career is over. Ill be the first one to tell you that Shaq sucks at free throws. That lebron needs to work on his outside shot. And Wade could play better defense. If everyone had your point of view we wouldnt even be having these arguments. but there people that believe that Kobe is already better than Jordan. I disagree. So I voice my opinion as to why. In doing that I have to bring up the things that Jordan has done that kobe has not. Other than that I never say anything bad about Kobe. Kobe is the best in the game right now hands down. But please my friend dont compare Jordan to Dan Marino. Its more like Montana or Bradshaw compared to Manning.
Comment from Anonymous on February 23, 2007 6:32:13 AM PST
Shaq's numbers going down signifies that his skills are diminishing and therefore is in fact dying. I didnt say he still wasnt one of the best centers out there, but just contradicting the statement that D-wade overshadows him skill wise compared to kobe who couldnt do that. I said thats simply because shaq isnt half as good anymore so its obvious d-wade had the edge over him. You bring up mj and thats cool. But realize that MJ wasnt "alone". Last time I checked this guy had one of the 50 greatest players of all time, Pippen. His lineup was talented unlike kobe's lineup today, with exception to lamar odom, who himself isn't even playing at all-star caliber. I feel that with a few trades and better role players, and if lamar steps his game up to the way it should be, (he could easily average at least 19-20 points instead of 14-15) the lakers could be a strong team. Another thing is that MJ was soo great that he revolutionized the game, now defenses are geared to try and stop or slow down MJ-like players, thus making it slighty tougher to win games for L-james, d-wade and kobe. but like u said we can only see what happens
Comment from Anonymous on February 22, 2007 9:42:18 PM PST
i see your point with Shaq. However MJ had a great team because he raised those guys level of play to his own. Come on lets be honest who thought Scottie Pippen, Tony Kukoc, DJ Armstrong, or any of those guys was going to be great. No one did. In fact Scottie Pippen was originally drafted by seatlle but was then traded to the Bulls for Olden Polynice. But when teamed up with MJ those players became so much better. Now will Smush Parker, Odom, Farmar, Walton, and others improve; time will only tell. Although I will say that Shaq, Robert Horry, Horace Grant, and others were already great before they started playing with Kobe. I will say that Kobe had Shaq, Karl Malone, and Gary Payton on the SAME team (wasnt that suppost to be one of the greatest lineups ever) and yet they got Bitch slapped by the Pistons (Jordan never lost in the finals). Jordan won 6 out of his 13 seasons with the bulls. Thats almost 50%. I will conclude by saying that while those bulls teams were great they never had a center. The bulls were in fact the only NBA Dynasty that did not have a dominating center allah Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Bill Russell, John Salley, Shaq Oneal.
Comment from DUDE on February 26, 2007 10:39:05 PM PST
well i compared him to dan marino, not statwise but popularity wise...it seems that dan seems to get recognized as the greates to play the qb position.....and peyton has similar qualities as marino...so i see it as a similarity to kobe and mj....i wasnt saying marino was the greatest. Another thing, what you said is exactly what i was trying to say, "kobe has to achieve as much as he could" to be known as the greatest...cuz with all these critics and mostle people who hate him, they will never shut up unless he matches Jordan's numbers or at least exceeds him in most of them. But as a fan of basketball i believe no one can do what one has already done, in the same way they did it. Magic Johnson is my personal all time great because of the way he changed the game....Jordan changed the game as well...although i dont think Kobe will change the game i think he will have a great impact and will achieve what most people can't. We can't sit here and argue about Jordan's numbers vs Kobe's because Kobe is still active...lets wait till he's retired and then see what the deal is.
Comment from Anonymous on February 23, 2007 11:38:02 AM PST
It takes 5 to make a team...not an individual, i strongly disagree that MJ made his teammates "GREAT" Scottie made himself great by learning from MJ because he was an outstanding leader and out of fear. MJ would show them up if they didnt come to play. That was his style. But to win championships you need effort from a whole team. Yeah one player can make a huge impact....but what is he without the rest of the lineup?? People tend to give Jordan all the credit in the world that he is the reason why his teammates were great...no he's not, If i were in that team would i be great just cause MJ is my captain? i dont think so. Players...as individuals have to have the will for playing the game...the dedication. Its wrongful to take away credit for the hard work these guys put day in day out...to reach their potential. Now don't get me wrong, Jordan was a major influential part in building these guys....but they are the reason they became who they were. Pippen and Rodman played great because they wanted to be great and they worked for it. Now, that said, Kobe needs to build his leadership skills to be like Mike, make his teammates share his passion, so that they can work as hard as him and be hungry like him. But in the end...it comes down to Smush, odom, walton....it comes down to them....just like Pippen, rodman, kukoc.....not kobe or mj. Another thing, There have been plenty of championship teams not won by a team with a dominant center...just not dynasties...that is true, but like i said...the reason those teams won was because of the cohesiveness of the unit as a whole...everyone backed each other up. There's a reason why they don't say "The defending champ Michael Jordan and his co champs the bulls".....they say the defending champs...the bulls....the team
Comment from Anonymous on February 27, 2007 12:34:13 AM PST
man yall need to shut up! jordan won championships cuz half of his team were veterans and not only dat pippen was an all star player. kobe have a young team and not one of them is an all star caliber. kobe is da best in da game rite now, he put his team on his back to make them better. give kobe his prop cuz he's da next jordan!!
Comment from Anonymous on February 27, 2007 8:22:30 PM PST
yes kobe is the best in the game hands down. but the point im trying to make is that now Kobe and Jordan sit in the same boat. When Jordan first got to the NBA he was great but his team stunk. Just as Kobe's team stunk 2 seasons ago in not making the playoffs. But as time went on Jordan found a way to win those championships. The question now is: "If Kobe is the next Jordan or the next player to take over the NBA, then will he be able to get a team to the finals." And yes Kobe played with veterans Karl Malone, Gary Payton, and Dennis Rodman and didnt win a championship with any of them.
Comment from DUDE on February 27, 2007 11:03:29 PM PST
i think you missed the point that i was trying to make. My point was that Jordan aided his team much more so than Kobe did. Scottie Pippen has said many times before that he wouldnt have been half the player he was if it wasnt for Jordan. would he have been great without Jordan? Yeah. But there are many great players out there who in the end just didnt have what it takes to become a champion. Jordan as the leader of those Bulls teams was able to get those guys into the proper mind set to win those championships. Thats all i was trying to say. I was responding to a comment that said Jordan was on a great team as if those guys were great when they got there and not giving Jordan and his leadership any credit. Also if you dont believe that a leader in team sports can make his teammates better than maybe you can explain how every great receiver has a great Quarterback. Why do you think Randy Moss stunk last season? Or maybe you can explain why they give out the MVP award. MOst Valuable Player. As in "this team would not be as good without this player because he/she makes them better." Dynasties dont happen by cowensadence. theres usually some reason has to why they were able to win time and time again. Jordan was that reason.
Comment from DUDE on February 27, 2007 10:38:33 PM PST
MVP awards have dissapointed me lately. I love Steve Nash but let's face it, the suns with still be ok without him. Yeah they lost 3 of 4 without him, but what team doesnt lose any games right after any player gets injured, they just needed time to adjust without him and the suns would of still be kickin ass. Now if that were to be Kobe, the team wouldn't be doing anything at all!! Also, i didn't miss the point you were trying to make, i see your point and i agreed to some extent. I simply said that individuals are the first reason why they are great, leadership comes second. Like you said it takes great leadership to prepare a player for the big one...but we also forget who else is the leader of the team...the coach. Phil Jackson lead jordan...which in turn lead the team as a whole. All im tryin to say is that all these Jordan fans give him a little too much credit for everything. I love Jordan..he is by far the greatest...but to sit here and say that no one can replace him is just being stubborn. we gotta let go of the past. Maybe it'll take 100 years before someone tops him..but its not like its impossible. And kobe has a good shot. Another thing, in football the relationship a QB has to a WR is very high. Obviously without a good QB ur not a good WR...how else can you get the ball and be considered a good receiver?? by running it?? thats obvious that you need a great QB...in fact every sport needs a great leader....
Comment from Anonymous on February 28, 2007 8:57:17 AM PST
you make a fine point about Jordan but I have to disagree about Nash being MVP. remember that before Nash got to Phoenix they were 29-53. Then Nash gets there and their 62-20. Mind you they had Marion, Stoudemire, and Barbosa on the same team but they couldnt even get to the playoffs until Nash got there. In Nash's second season with the Suns Stoudemire got injured. Yet they still made the playoffs and went to the WEst Semis. While Im sure many people would have liked to have seen Kobe win the MVP you have to understand why they gave it to NAsh. Taking Nash off the Suns is like taking Magic off the Lakers or Stockton off the Jazz. You cant get rid off a distributor like Nash. If only his team could play some D they could still it. Remember Showtime?
Comment from DUDE on March 2, 2007 1:03:36 PM PST
I meant to say "steal" it not "still it". i need to go back to school.
Comment from DUDE on March 2, 2007 1:07:17 PM PST
But see we are yet to see what kobe is gonna do with the team he has...all i was trying to say is that talent-wise...who had the better team?? Jordan or Kobe....handsdown i'd say Jordan. It's just a simple reality that Jordans lineup, naturally had more talent than today's lakers lineup...thats just how the game is, some players are better than others....another thing you mention Kobe playing with Malone, Payton...Rodman, shoot maybe even Pippen himself with the rumors going on that his gonna make a return...but you forget to mention at what stage in their careers. Malone....dying star, played with kobe in his last year...the guy was 40. Payton another oooold veteran. If pippen comes back..guess what...he's not gonna be as good!! so to sit here and say that "yeah kobe had good players and couldnt win a championship" is bogus, because we all know that these players aren't half as good as what they used to be...back in the jordan days...thats like bringing jordan back and expecting him to win a championship again...not gonna happen.
Comment from Anonymous on February 28, 2007 9:07:46 AM PST
Dying? My friend i think you need to check your stats. Both Gary Payton and Karl Malone were averaging 20 points prior to the season they joined the Lakers. Of course their numbers went down because they had to share the ball with Shaq and Kobe who couldnt even share the ball amungst themselves. Lets also remember that going into that finals against the Pistons the Lakers were the clear favorite. But why did they lose? Lets also remember that "dying' players as you like to call them still can play a vital role in championships. Have you heard of John Elway, David Robinson, Dennis Rodman, and Jerry Rice(raiders). Just because a player is not in their prime does not mean their dying. Besides Kobe and Shaq proved that they could win by themselves. But how come given two seasoned veterans they couldn't get it done? Ok they were dying but they were still good and both of them had the motivation of finally winning a championship and going out on top. Every Laker fan was excited to hear those guys were coming to LA because we knew what they could do. No one was saying, "those guys are too old." And please put your Laker DVD on and watch the replay of that Pistons series. Old age was not the reason the Lakers lost that series. Kobe unlike Jordan will not win a championship with a highly skilled team because I dont think Kobe knows how to bring out the best in his teammates while still being able to feel satisfied with his offensive contributions. Kobe either feels the need to try and do everything or do nothing at all. Just like he did in the second half of game 7 versus the Suns last season. What was that about?
Comment from DUDE on March 2, 2007 12:31:49 PM PST
Dying? My friend I think you need to check the stats. Both Malone and Payton were averaging 20ppg when they came to the Lakers. Yeah their numbers went down, but that's because they had to share the ball with Kobe and Shaq who could barely share the ball with themselves. Also a "dying" player can still play a vital role in winning a championship. Have you heard of John Elway, Dennis Rodman, David Robinson, and Jerry Rice(raiders/super bowl). Remember Kobe and Shaq won 3 championships without them. They won a championship with Samaki Walker at Power Forward. When every Laker fan heard Payton and Malone were coming to LA they got excited because we knew what those guys could offer to the team. Going into the finals the Lakers were the clear favorite. Why did they lose? Pop that Laker DVD in and watch. Old age had nothing to do with it. Also I dont feel that Kobe will ever win a championship with a highly skilled team because I dont think Kobe knows how to bring out the best in players while meeting his own needs offensively. Kobe has to either be doing all the work or only putting up 20 points. Remember when he only took 3 shots in the second half against the Suns in game 7. Explain that to me.
Comment from DUDE on March 2, 2007 12:49:34 PM PST
DUDE...you're gettin me all wrong, i never said a old player cant be good...i'm comparing, as you were, between the lakers and the bulls, the bulls had a better younger lineup...compared to the lakers with payton and malone...im not saying they didnt play well...otherwise they wouldn't have made it to the finals...lol...they lost because simply put, detroit outplayed them and because there was an ego struggle at the time between shaq, kobe and phil...the team morale was down. I hate it when people take away credit from other teams...i'm a huge lakers fan, and i feel that skillwise, their team was better than detroit that year, but what matters is how they play on the field, and the pistons outhustled and outsmarted the lakers...i give them all the credit
Comment from Anonymous on March 4, 2007 2:41:58 PM PST
i already agreed that Jordans team was better. i believe that the Pistons outplayed the Lakers. My point was that the Lakers didnt lose because of their age, they lost because a lack of leadership. Yet many people say it was Kobe's team.
Comment from DUDE on March 4, 2007 6:08:52 PM PST
Yes they didn't have nash, yes they did have marion, stoudamire, who didn't they have? Mike D'antoni, coach of the year, that's why they didnt make the playoffs, Nash is GREAT...but you can put a decent point guard on that team, and they would still win close to 60 games. The question is, which team would suffer more...we know that both will suffer, but who will do better?
Comment from Anonymous on March 4, 2007 2:46:33 PM PST
Well look at it this way. The Suns without Nash and D'antoni didnt make the playoffs; so i guess they should both be given credit for the teams success. but then again Kobe has one of the greatest coach's in sports history. so when it comes to coach's Kobe has the upper hand. You can't discredit Nash for having a great coach. Remember Magic had Pat Riley but he still won MVP's. In fact one season Magic averaged 19 points compared to Jordans 35 but Magic still got the MVP. Did people argue about it? Yes. So Jordan went on to beat Magic in the Finals, followed by 5 more titles; and by many people is seen to be better than Magic. Than Clyde Drexler won the MVP instead of Jordan. So Jordan hit (6) 3 pointers in one half on route to beating Clyde's Blazers in the Finals. Last season Kobe averaged more points than Nash. Hell he scored 81 points in one game. But when faced against a Nash and the Suns (without Stoudamire) Kobe and the Lakers still couldn't pull it off. In that series the Lakers played so much better because Kobe did what many people thought he should have done all along. trust his teammates. Kobe was averaging about 22 points as the Lakers had a 3-2 lead in the series. Yet the Lakers still lost. In fact in game 6 the Suns didnt have Raja Bell and yet Nash still found a way to win. Before the playoffs i was split on who should win MVP. But afterward Nash proved why he should have won it. And as far as who would do better Kobe's Lakers beat the Suns with Nash at the beginning of the season. in fact the Lakers have shown many times that they could win without Kobe.
Comment from DUDE on March 4, 2007 6:52:47 PM PST
Excellent points, and i see you know your baskteball, but in regards to the Nash mvp...Before the series began, which may i add, was one of the greatest series i have personally seen, next to the kings series, when horry hit that awesome shot, and the trailblazers series, with the ultimate comeback in game 7. But anyways the suns and lakers series, before it began, you could ask anyone who they thought would win that series....unless you were a hardcore laker fan, you'd probably say phoenix, hell i thought the lakers were only gonna win one game to tell u the truth, and they surprised all of us when they won 3. But how did they win those games? One, Phil and the coachin staff did an excellent job of penetrating the paint, which was where the suns were weak. and 2, kobe played in a way that benefited the team, and in crunch time, he took over. Like jordan in his days. The only mistake he had, was sticking to the game plan when the suns had already figured out how to outplay that scheme. In my opinion, in game 6 and 7, Kobe should have been the kobe we were used to seeing that whole year.....scoring 30+. Then maybe....just maybe, they could have won. And mind you that who knows how far they could have made it...if they would of beat the suns...maybe to the conference finals...where dallas would stop them. but remember, the lakers won the season series with dallas...but then again..the playoffs is a whole other monster.
Comment from Anonymous on March 5, 2007 8:42:34 AM PST
Exactly. That was my point. If "kobe played in a way that benefited the team, and in crunch time," throughout the entire season they would have had a better record and could have had home court advantage that opening series against the Clippers or maybe the Nuggets; whoever was the fifth seed. And Kobe did have a 30+ game in game 6 against the Suns where he scored...what 50 points. And in game 7 with it all out on the line Kobe comes out in the second half and only takes 3 shots. It's almost as if he gave up.
Comment from DUDE on March 5, 2007 10:05:44 AM PST
Yeah i agree..they did have a lack of leadership, but that wasn't kobe's team....as long as shaq was there...the offense was geared for shaq...and remember that at the time there was tensions between shaq and kobe, and phil and kobe....kobe was going through a lot of drama, on and off the court...
Comment from Anonymous on March 5, 2007 8:51:17 AM PST
ok. good. that's all i wanted to hear because many will dispute that those championship teams were Kobe's. but you've cleared up for me that we're both on the same page.
Comment from DUDE on March 5, 2007 9:55:10 AM PST
oh and another thing, yes kobe has Phil, but so did jordan, but again...we come to the question...which team...as a whole, was better, Jordan and the bulls, Nash and the Suns, or Kobe and the lakers??? If i had to arrange them from strongest to weakest...it'll be a coin toss between Nash and Jordan...the obvious 3rd place is Kobe and the lakers....they have the weakest team.
Comment from Anonymous on March 5, 2007 8:54:55 AM PST
i've said twice already that Jordan had the better teams. I'm not comparing the current Lakers or the old Lakers to the bulls. I was simply stating that the Malone Lakers were expected to win but didnt. But my main point was that Kobe is now where Jordan was early on in his career. Remember it took Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc, and Armstrong years of hard work together to get a championship. They weren't shoe-ins to win. Kobe, Odom, Walton, Bynum, and Kwame are in the same position. Who knows what they'll accomplish. I'm tired of people saying Kobe doesn't have a good team. He has Odom that could be a Pippen with hard work. Bynum that is the next great Lakers center. Jordan Farmar who is one of the best guards out of college. And Phil Jackson the greatest coach of all time. I refuse to believe that just because we dont have an all star line up we cant win. i'm all about the underdog. the Lakers proved against the Suns that they have what it takes. Remember that those Laker teams with SHaq were not the best on paper. The Blazers and Kings were far better on paper. But in the end it's about leadership, a great game plan, and determination. THe Lakers have Kobe as their leader, Phil as their game planner, and now just need to show determination. If the team expected to win always won would many of us even bother to watch sports. No because we always know that theres always the chance for an upset. The Pistons outplayed the Lakers. Why cant the Lakers do that? I believe. Do you? Or are you avid to saying "we're not good enough." YOu're only as good as you believe you are.
Comment from DUDE on March 5, 2007 9:51:34 AM PST
Which brings me back to my old point, Kobe can only do so much....its up to the rest of the squad to do their part...didnt i already say that?? Determination is the key, Odom can easily average 20-22 points a game....he's a walking triple double type guy, but is he determined to do that night in, night out?? This was how our discussion started...that Jordan "made his players great" and i simply said...yes he helped develop them...but no..he did not make them great...they themselves...worked hard and became great....thats what the lakers will have to do.
Comment from Anonymous on March 5, 2007 10:01:30 AM PST
I dont recall what he had in game 6...but i'll take your word for it, however, the rest of the squad didn't contribute and so you can't put all the blame on kobe. In game 7, he did give up, i dont know why, but he did. I think he gave up because he was racking up any assists, like he was in the first games. And the suns ran the lakers over in the first quarter and a half......way too quick. It definately killed the little morale the lakers had. Another thing, they went up 3-1...they got cocky..which is the ultimate mistake....then when the series was tied again...psychologically it puts the team in a hole...especially if you know that game 7 will be on the road. And i don't recall what game it was..but i think it was 6...where thomas hit the 3 pointer to win the ball game. That was an awesome shot....although kwame should have done better defensively...but theres nothing u can do about that...thats a part of the game
Comment from Anonymous on March 5, 2007 10:11:42 AM PST
"In game 7, he did give up." If your team leader has given up then how can you expect the role leaders to believe. "they went up 3-1...they got cocky." Kobe is a veteran and knows better than to get cocky and yet he did. that was his ultimate mistake. he's the leader. while he doesn't deserve all the blame he does deserve a majority of it. After all when they win he receives a majority of the credit.
Comment from DUDE on March 5, 2007 10:27:39 AM PST
But determination isnt about averaging more points. Its about team defense. Odom's 5 or 6 more points isnt the key. Remember Kobe's numbers went down against the Suns and we played better. Also keep in mind that the Suns scored more points than anybody last season yet they didn't win it all. Why? Lack of defense. The Lakers have their offense set. all they need to do is keep it close til the 4th quarter where Kobe as someone stated earlier can "take over."
Comment from DUDE on March 5, 2007 10:17:11 AM PST
Well now we're getting into an other argument...which i have no arguments against...yes we do need defense. But a little more offense doesnt hurt either. Many people say defense makes for a good offense...but that is also true vice-versa. If lamar scored 22 points a game...if forces the opponent, to put a scheme to slow down lamar...this, in turn, will wear out the opponents more...making it easier for the lakers to defend. Why wasn't shawn marion succesful against lamar?? because lamar averaged 16 points a game in the series...he put marion to work....and as a result, marion wasnt himself on the offense...so yeah...i agree that increasing your point average isnt the answer to all problems...but it's a start
Comment from Anonymous on March 5, 2007 10:25:20 AM PST
like i said i dont know why he gave up...being the team leader...that should have been the last thougth on his mind. All in all...the lakers had a phenomenal run, given that they weren't even expected to make the playoffs. This is one reason i use to argue that kobe should have been MVP. Every expert knew the suns would make it. Nobody counted on the lakers...and they came so close to beating the suns...imagine if the would have pulled it off??? How many votes would have been regreted??? i'd bet a lot of them would.
Comment from Anonymous on March 5, 2007 10:32:09 AM PST
yeah that was a great series. although the Lakers lost they were capable of doing much more than they did. People don't give them enough credit. They're more than just a one man team.
Comment from DUDE on March 5, 2007 11:15:28 AM PST
Man, wat da fuck all these haters talkin about?! Jordan did this, jordan did dat, jordan had a better team, jordan was better, mutha fucka so what!! Im goin tell yall this, kobe have a YOUNG team rite now, no all star player! give da dude credit dat he put his team dis far and plus we wanna see a jordan type player, so no other dude has more comparison like jordan than kobe,(not lebron or dwade) KOBE!! It's probably gonna take a few more years to win a championship or reach da finals! He's da best!!!!!
Comment from Anonymous on March 5, 2007 9:41:39 PM PST
I came to a realization today; and thats that Kobe and Jordan really worked their butts off to be who they are. They trained 8-10 hours a day in the off season and played usually over 90-100 games a season. They overcame the haters, the odds, and the competition. We can all agree that they were the best of their eras. Those of us that love Jordan have to Love Kobe and vice versa. They're so similar. As far as who's better we'll never know. In sports to call yourself better than someone you have to beat them. Jordan and Kobe never played each other in their primes. Even if they did people could say, "well that guy had a better coach or that guy had a better team or that guy had home court advantage." In the end we'll never know. Sports is all about the unexpected. Did anyone expect Ali to stay on the ropes? So who am I to discredit Kobe or any professional athlete for that matter. My ass isnt working out 8 hours a day. But I will say this: "if someone is to come and top Jordan they'll do it using his blueprint. A blueprint that they know will work. A blueprint that tells them to workout 8 hours a day, work on their outside shot, be the best defender they can, trust their teammates, and relish in the clutch. While that individual should be given their props I will say that Jordan didn't have the advantage they did. Jordan did not have the advantage of seeing someone with his skill level win multiple championships. Before Jordan a guard was a ball hog if he averaged over 30 points a game. It was all about the team. But Jordan's team sucked. So he took matters into his own hands. Through trial and error he developed the Jordan rules. Imagine if he had this at the beginning of his career. Just imagine me putting pieces to a model car in front of you and telling you to put it together. You may not know where to start, what to paint first, how long to let it dry, and what goes where. But then imagine I let someone else try it before you and let you watch. You then could sit there and take notes of their mistakes and write instructions as to how to build this car. When given the opportunity to put the car together yourself you could probably put that car together faster and more efficiently than they did. Does that make you smarter? No. Does it make them smarter? No. but you would definitely have to thank them for trying and letting you see how it's done. If it wasn't for their bravery and courage there’s no telling where you would end up. That's all I'm trying to say.” So with that I am signing out. Its been swell. Thanks to the guy who started this blog for humbling me. And thanks for occupying me for 3 minutes everyday...lol. Piece.
Comment from DUDE on March 6, 2007 1:21:14 PM PST
You have to take situations into account when you compare players. And the one presented earlier is a prefect example of why Kobe is not on the same level as Jordan or even Magic or Bird. The fact that the lakers lost in the first round last year is not the problem( PHX was a better team) but can you imagine Jordan ever scoring 1 point in the second half of a game 7 that his team was losing in??? When you are the team leader, star player and as some say the best in the game. You can not give up. To me that says alot about the type of player you are. Talent aside there is more to being great.
And I look at it like this... If you took Kobe and placed him on the bulls teams i think they win one or two rings. Now if you take Jordan and put him on the Lakers teams I bet they would win 4 or 5, for that matter I think there were several guys in the league that you could have substuted for Kobe and still won 3 rings. (AI or Mcgrady are the first to come to mind)
Kobe is a great player and it's fun to compare but just because a benz has the similar characteristics to a Rolls, it's not in the same category.
Comment from Anonymous on March 7, 2007 9:32:00 AM PST
DUDE....I couldn't have said it better....thank you man, you are a true fan of basketball. Although we had our little arguments here and there...thats just all a matter of opinion, its in the nature of sports...thats what most people can't seem to understand. I think Kobe will be better...but he's gonna have to work his butt off. But even if he tops jordan in anyway possible, in the end it won't matter, because there will still be those faithful to Jordan, who will always disagree. Well said.
Comment from Anonymous on March 7, 2007 9:50:21 AM PST
...Well said?!... What da fuck u talkin about man?!! Check it out though i know who is da best of all time better than the 50 greatest and especially micheal jordan! Dis dude could easily win a championship on any team he's in or could win 7 championships! He could have more MVP titles than Jordan (like 6)! He also could beat Wilt's 100 forget kobe's 81 and win more scoring titles than jordan!! No one could beat him and also he don't need an all star player or sidekick to win a champion! Man dis fool should get an MVP dis year and 2 more, and to be da first to get 3 MVP in a row! His name is Earl Boykins with the Milwaukee Bucks....Baby!......
Comment from Anonymous on March 7, 2007 6:44:30 PM PST
HAHA earl....classic stuff
Comment from Anonymous on March 8, 2007 12:14:20 AM PST